How do you think we came to be as we are today? What is your reasoning? How sure are you of that belief? What about the Big Bang, evolution, and other theories? What about holy texts such as the Bible, Qu'ran, Buddhist literature, etc. Of what relevance are they? How do you decide which belief is right?

Just as a side note this topic became an offshoot of Lucya's "I don't believe in god because" topic. here is my last reply to that topic.................................................. I agree that it requires a great deal of faith to believe that you "know" the reason for our being, whether that be a religious theory or the Big Bang. I do not like reliance on faith, although it is almost necessary sometimes. I think that people should rely on faith as little as possible and logic as much as possible. For example, most people have faith that their spouse does not cheat on them when they are not around. That faith develops from knowing that person, and using rational thought to judge past behavior and make assumptions about the future. I would not marry a woman that I did not know because it would be stupid for me to have any faith in her because I have no logic to base my faith on. Even having strong faith in a spouse, you cannot "know" by faith alone that she will never cheat on you or never has when you were not around, although the likelihood may be strongly on your side based on your good judgment. I feel the same way about religion. I also do not think that people can claim to "know" with absolute certainty the reason for their being. I cannot claim to "know" that Christian beliefs are false, just as I can't claim that I know there aren't invisible flying clowns that created the universe (I'm sure a more logical argument can be made for Christianity though). I also feel that, with the number of religions out there, most of which claiming to be the only right answer, that there is not enough logic for people to base their faith on (just my personal opinion). It may be a good source of moral living in many ways (again, my opinion). I can make a good argument that following the Golden Rule leads to good order in society and a happy lifestyle. However, the Bible also makes some very extraordinary claims. Let's start with the basics: Jesus was both fully God and Man, he was born by the Holy Ghost (Mary did not have sex to conceive him, and he rose from the dead and ascended into heaven. I know no one that has ever seen, done, or heard of any of those things (with the exception of the Bible), and to my knowledge, those happenings would contradict all empirical data ever recorded in the history of mankind. I find faith in those facts to be like having faith in the spouse that you never met before. Or maybe a better analogy would be marrying a spouse that I only read about on her hi5 profile.

Well, as i am sure you know, I believe in the Bible creation story, lol. I base my belief on a simply truth, that is entirely logical in my opinion (though it may seem illogical to others). Let me ask you this. Your are in an art museum, and you see a painting. You have led a sheltered life up until this point, and are unsure as to the existence of painters, having never met one yourself. So how can you tell the painter exists? Simple, the painting is proof of the painter. How can you tell that a builder exists? Again, our cities are evidence of the builders in our societies. So, using a mathematical proof that a majority of people learn in school as kids, i have discovered that if exists "A", then exists "B" (if you catch my drift). If there exists a building, then there exists a Builder. Similarly, if there exists a creation, there exists a creator. This may seem trivial to most, but it really does make a simple kind of sense, right? So if this proof makes any sense at all, the only problem would be to find the "right" creator. This then goes back to what i posted the other day in Lucya's topic. Its all about experience. Now to ask a person for proof of the existence of their God cannot be answered easily. Many times all they have to offer is the experience they've had with it. And the experience they've had is probably not the experience a person outside of their faith would have. Thus making it hard to prove, as a person's experience's are separate from other's, obviously. This is a great topic for discussion, and i am very curious to see where it goes! -rayray-

Do you believe in the literal translation of the Bible creation story? And, if you do, which story do you believe in? There are a number of contradictions between the two stories which include the order in which God created the universe and the amount of time it took to finish creation. Also, in the first story, God created light and darkness on the first day, and he didn't create the only known sources for that light until the 4th day (sun and stars). Also, I'm only nitpicking Genesis because I don't think that certain parts of the Bible can be used as historical fact. I find your argument about the painter/painting to be more reasonable. To be honest, I also believe in a God, although I do not have any belief anymore as to which religion is correct, if any of them are. The reason that I believe in a God is for a similar reason. I find it difficult to imagine a world so intricate to be the product of random chance. I've studied biology and I'm studying the basics of astronautical engineering, and I cannot help to marvel at how complex the simplest life is and the order of space and planetary motion. However, just because I believe in a God does not necessarily mean that I have any good reason to believe that the Bible is the explanation, or any book for that matter. It also does not mean that another explanation doesn't exist. In the past, people have often used some sort of deity to explain every scientific phenomena. As we gain scientific knowledge, rational people have come to discredit those beliefs (I don't think that anyone believes that Zeus or Thor is the cause of lightning anymore). In the past, people have used deities to explain the unexplainable, but what happens when we gain the knowledge to explain what was once unexplainable...we have no use for the deity explanations anymore. I consider that possibility, especially since I have never perceived God with any of my 5 senses, which are my only indicators of reality, however limited those may be. If God exists, why did he create me and the rest of humanity? To worship and love him as the Bible says? (correct me if I am wrong)? Why does God want me to do that if God is perfect? Why does God expect that of humanity if he does not give us the ability to perceive him with the 5 senses that he designed us with? Why should someone go to hell for choosing the wrong doctrines? For the most part, the religion of an individual is based on his geographic location on the map and his upbringing. How much do you know about Daoism or some of the African religions? It's as if God had scattered us throughout a jungle blindfolded, and expected us to find our way out when there is only one true path and a seemingly limitless number of incorrect ones. Also, you claim that in your experience you have proof of God. That may be something personal, so I'm not asking you to comment on it if you don't want, but have you ever asked yourself if it may be all made up in your head? I've seen people "speak in tongues" before, and I couldn't help but wonder if those people really were being told to say what I would call jibberish by God, or if they had fooled themselves into believing in what they were doing (which I think some people do that because there is pressure by some churches for its members to do that, and...monkey see, monkey do). Just some food for thought.

It is apparent that you have done much thinking on this matter. I appreciate being able to speak with someone who isn't just trying to counter me every time i say something, or in essence prove me wrong. I thank you for this. I do believe the literal translation of the Bible. As for which story, i believe in the 6 day creation, and 7th day rest version. However, if i understood which other version you meant, i would say that the second version is a less specific generalization, not necessarily in any specific order, of the first, . I would have to refresh my memory by reading over both again. As for the light thing, if you wanted to go scientific, there are many other sources of light that are less obvious than the sun and moon and ect... from the creation story. I am no great scientist, but i do know that light can be emitted when certain elements come into contact. would you think it possible that God created light and then later added those elements to larger sources (ones that would have been easier for early man to grasp)? Just a thought. Another thing i noticed is that as David F. Beck points out, The Bible is not a science text; the scientific method was unknown in biblical times. ...The purposes of religion and science are completely different. Science seeks to describe, explain, and predict. The Bible tries to tell the purpose of creation, and to point the way to morality, righteousness, and salvation. It should not be surprising that their methods are different and even incompatible. "
I find many people trying to argue against the bible using science, when really, they are two totally different categories. In some cases the use of science may be necessary, however, you cannot argue the credibility of Psalms (as one quick example) using science (which people have done before...strangely). Congrads on your Astronautical engineering! I will be taking courses in aeronautical Engineering, fascinating stuff i think!
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As for believing in a specific religion, well, I try to learn from my Bible, and my experience, as opposed to just a religion. after all, people in religions are still people, and do make mistakes. The one thing i find about the bible is that if you read it enough times, things start to make sense, and you find the answers for the things that seemed to contradict themselves. Of the many different religious "bibles," that i have read, the so called "Christian Bible" is the first i have found to do this. To be honest, it is my understanding that we as humans have six senses. In any religion (most anyhow) there is some sort of sense for the spiritual. Why it is that not everyone seems to have an active spiritual sense if this is the case, i do not know. However, you could argue that people have simply replaced it with scientific knowledge. What once seemed to be a spiritual feeling is now explained away as some chemical being released into your brain. Which may be true, but the question still remains, what activated that release of chemicals? Was your spiritual sense brushed by something that caused your body to react? As to why God would create humanity, well, that is a large question. I cannot claim to know why God would create us, however, since none of us are perfect, we cannot know if it is possible for a perfect being to be lonely, thus making it a possibility. However, even if this was the case, i think it would extend far beyond loneliness, and there would be many other reasons as to why. And yes, you are correct about the worshiping and loving him thing. but here is a question, would a perfect being be conceited? I mean to the point of self worship?(going of what you said about worship, and love). It is my understanding that God has a reason for everything he does, and I am compelled to believe that, as i cannot at this time understand everything. As far as different religions, this would go back to my first post in Lucya's topic. Ultimately, if any one faith is the right faith, the others would had to have been man made, right? I said that without naming any specific faith, because i have no right to tell anyone that they are wrong. That is not my place. As for my experience being all in my head, well, i suppose it is possible that a delusional person may not know he is delusional. However, i am confident that i am not delusional, (lol, i hope) as i have asked myself many questions, and tested much about my experiences. As for speaking in tongues, well, like prophesy, some people seek attention, others follow the crowd. (if that makes sense)
I myself do believe this is real, though by biblical description, this is to be done in private, as it is like direct communication between God and your spirit. Tongues is not to be used as an attention grabber. It is literally understood to be a spiritual language given to you when you are baptized in the holy spirit. I also understand that tongues can be used in a prophetic manner, only when someone is given the interpretation by the holy spirit. Well i am out of time for today, i look forward to your reply. -rayray-

sorry, my post was to long, lol.

Hey, I'm back...I've been busy and then I went on spring break...anyways....So, you are suggesting that we lost our sixth sense? Is that a faith statement? Do you know anyone with a proven sixth sense? I ask because you can prove the 5 senses that we have scientifically. That really doesn't make much sense to me. Is that a statement on microevolution (I know you don't buy into macroevolution)? How many generations do you think it took for science to replace our sixth sense? I think the only thing that science really began to replace is superstitious beliefs. Another thing, you said that it is not your place to tell anyone that they are wrong with respect to their faith. But, correct me if I am wrong, you claim Christianity is true. So unless it is possible for more than one to be right, which I think it is not, then you must also claim that others are false if you know Christianity to be true. Do you believe your in your faith so much as to claim that you know for certain that it is true? If you do not, then you are like the rest of us, to an extent, because you can't claim somebody else is wrong if you do not even know for certain that you are right yourself.

What i said was, i have no right to tell anyone else that their faith is wrong. I believe that ultimately, my faith is the right faith. And if you really want to go there, then yes, in my view, i am going to heaven, and outsiders to "Christianity" the so called "pagans" are going to hell. However, i have no right to tell you or anyone else that they are all wrong. that would also be in violation with my faith, because the seat of judgment is gods seat, and not mine. Thats all i meant by that. As far as the sixth sense thing goes... the word "sense" is used loosely to put the subject into an understandable context. So in a way i am suggesting that we as humans are born with the ability to "sense" the spiritual side of life. here is a scenario: You are a child of 13 years old. You walk into a room in an old condemned home, where your friends have told you a sick cannibal murder lived some time in the past. chills run up your spine... paranoid delusion? yes, your mind is over active. Scenario 2: you walk into your living room and out of no where you feel like something is wrong. A half hour later the hospital calls and tells you your mother is in intensive care... are you delusional? how can you explain that? The Christian view on spirituality is not all that dis-similar. You might see the phone call as mere coincidence, but from my point of view, it is rather spiritual. SO, as for whether the "sixth sense" thing is a faith statement, in a way yes, until you experience it a few times. anyhow this was a rushed answer as i need to go. but i will certainly try to explain better later tonight. thank you. -rayray-

Ok, I think I know where you stand now. No worries, it doesn't bother me at all if you believe that non-Christians are going to hell. That is your belief, whether it is true or not has no bearing on reality...I don't understand exactly what you mean by it is against your faith to tell me that I am wrong. You believe that those who are not saved by Jesus are going to hell. It's against your faith to say what you believe? If you said you think I am going to hell, that is not necessarily your judgment, just your belief (unless you said you personally were going to somehow send me there or that I belong there...see the difference?). If I saw someone who got arrested for murder, I could say, based on the written law, I think that he/she is going to get life inprisonment. I am not personally sending that person to jail and nor am I saying that he/she deserves that punishment. Ok, so I think I know what you are talking about with the sixth sense thing with scenario 2, although I am not too familiar with sensing things spiritually personally, I understand the gut feeling that sometimes influences decisions. Your scenario 1 could be just somebody playing games in their mind because their imagination plays with the idea. I can get the chills watching a scary movie. I've heard of people claiming things happening like in scenario 2, although I cannot personally say that I remember anything like it ever happening to me. I am skeptical of that being something spiritual, but I'll suppose for arguments sake that there is a ring of truth to that. What do you suppose that is? What does that mean, to sense the spiritual? Do you believe that some people can see auras around other people as they claim? Do you think that this spiritual sense helps you to better hear or sense God? Is it the ability to sense the future?